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Where are we going?


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Hi All

It seems that the trend is moving towards Solid State Drives, - even though the standard hard disks have served us well.

This I think will necessitate rethinking on the part of defrag-programs companies.

Most experts agree that there is nothing gained by defragging a SSD and that it may even be harmful in the sense that it decreases the lifespan of the SSD.

There are some that argue that there is some benefit to be gained by defragging a heavily fragmented SSD, they have found that a very heavily fragmented SSD will lose as much as 30% of its speed and that the extra wear that the fragmentation creates will be larger than the wear an occasional defragmentation will create.

If this is true the defrag programmers will have to rewrite at least parts of their programs to for example first to initiate a defrag when the fragmentation exceeds perhaps 50% - I haven’t as yet seen at what level they would choose to do it.

Perhaps an idea would be to have 2 SSD’s in the computer and utilize the second to hold a copy of the first SSD while the first SSD is formatted – then copy it back to the first SSD and format the second. This ought to defrag the contents without unduly decreasing the lifespan of the SSD?

Do we have any experts on SSD in the forum?

Cheers

solbjerg

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I have seriously considered buying an SSD to try, but after reading negative reviews about their Over-heat failures and that they still cost about twice as much as conventional drive, I've about desided Not to get one now.

I may wait for the Next generation, to be released.

 

As far as I know, there is only one company producing them and they were introduced a long time ago, with low popularity and acceptance. Those things alone make me wonder if the present model would a prudent purchase?

I could be completely wrong about that tho, if someone wishes to explain my Error?

 

I, of course, would also like to hear comments from anyone with technical knowledge of these possible next step in the evolution of data storage devices.

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Hi!

You don't need to defragment a SSD. Defragmentation is something that belongs to circular, rotating disks. When you move to SSD the consept of defragmentation is left behind.

Actually, defragmenting a SSD will kill it quite rapidly, also formatting. You only have a limited number of write sequences. When thay are used up, the disk is useless.

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Morn Viking

Are you a user of a SSD computer?

I have also held the opinion that defragmentation of SSD was unnecessary and even detrimental to the lifespan of the SSD, but then I came across the information I mentioned and thought that left a bit of hope for the defrag-programs companies :-)

When you write limited - what does that mean approximately?

The RAM blocks does seem to live for a long time and I have yet to experience that any of my sticks pop their clogs :-)

In my computer youth with Windows 3.11 I never ran scandisks and never defragmenting either until I discovered that more than half of the harddisk consisted of bad blocks - by then it was too late to do something about it except getting a new harddisk. I then got a 700 MB harddisk and switched to Windows 95 and after that I have regulary run both scandisks and defragmenting - my present harddisks are by now about 10 years old and still works fine - so does XP.

The defragging then needed at least 15% free space - when we moved to harddisks in the GB bracket it still needed 15% free space, and I see no reason that the terabyte disks also have to have 15% free space for defragmenting at least when it is well filled. After all there is that much more data that has to be moved around during a defrag.

If you have good balanced information or links to it concerning SSD I would like to see it.

Thank you Viking!

Cheers

solbjerg

 

 

Hi!

You don't need to defragment a SSD. Defragmentation is something that belongs to circular, rotating disks. When you move to SSD the consept of defragmentation is left behind.

Actually, defragmenting a SSD will kill it quite rapidly, also formatting. You only have a limited number of write sequences. When thay are used up, the disk is useless.

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Hei, Solbjerg!

 

There are many sites talking about SSD's but I consider the information from Intel to be the most accurate.

http://www.intel.com/support/ssdc/hpssd/sb/CS-029623.htm#5

I will strongly advice not to install SSD into an environment that is depenting on write cycles, ie. data storage.

But, in an environment where the SSD contains data to be read, ie. OS Boot, they are superb.

 

According to Moores law the numbers will change, but I think that a SSD har about 1 000 000 write cycles. A harddrive appx. 500 000 hours lifespan.

 

Hope this was a bit helpfull.

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Hi Viking

Thank you!! I will take a look/read :-)

I am not about to change my harddisks now - just thought about it and are seeking information.

Cheers

solbjerg

p.s. Moore's "Law" (after mr. Moore' prediction in 1965 that the number of circuits would double every year) - by now a self-fulfilling prediction while the the goal for the industry has this as their goal. :-)

 

Hei, Solbjerg!

 

There are many sites talking about SSD's but I consider the information from Intel to be the most accurate.

http://www.intel.com/support/ssdc/hpssd/sb/CS-029623.htm#5

I will strongly advice not to install SSD into an environment that is depenting on write cycles, ie. data storage.

But, in an environment where the SSD contains data to be read, ie. OS Boot, they are superb.

 

According to Moores law the numbers will change, but I think that a SSD har about 1 000 000 write cycles. A harddrive appx. 500 000 hours lifespan.

 

Hope this was a bit helpfull.

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Hi sunny1

Thanks!

(Do you mean that most people you know use Windows 7?) :-)

(makes me think of "The Affluent Society" by J.K.Galbraight) :-)

I leave a link to explain TRIM to those of us that are not familiar with the term: :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIM

Cheers

solbjerg

p.s. the 1 was a typo -intended to be an exclamation point - but when I noticed I thought that I inadvertently had hit on a fine nom de guerre. :-)

 

most people i know use the ssd for the operating system only as C drive and leave "TRIM" in windows 7 to look after it.
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Are we talking about SSDs, Like a RAM Flashdrive?

Which I would never consider as my primary data storage device.

(unless it was in a Noncritical portable device)

 

or Are we talking about SSD Hybrid drives, with both RAM and Hard-disk?

 

In my remark above, I thought it was SSD Hybrids, which are being produced Now, by Seagate.

 

The purpose of a hard-disk is to have a more permanant, and more physical copy of the data.

Using RAM alone is electrical only, which is Not Good since there's a greater chance of loosing the data.

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. SSDs only have a limited number of write sequences. When thay are used up, the disk is useless.

 

Sorry, but I think this statement is Not correct.

I did an extensive search and could Not find any data indicating a short life-span for Random Access Memory caused by how many times it is accessed.

99% of RAM failures are caused by:

improper manufacturing process

being installed Incorrectly or damaged

or by excessive Heat, due to improper cooling.

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Hi Viking

Sorry if it was I that confused the issue - I do ramble on :-)

It was of course Solid State Drives I was interested in, and your link has got me started on my investigation. Thanks!

I do think my next computer will be a SSD, but hopefully first in a couple of years - my patience here is very Chinese :-)

Any helpful comments/suggestions will be appreciated!!

Cheers

solbjerg

 

 

That is correct, but SSD and RAM are two different technologies.
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That is correct, but SSD and RAM are two different technologies.

 

It depends on if the 'D' in SSD is referring to 'Device' or 'Drive'.

To me SSDs is a general-term name covering All electronic memory 'devices'.

(which was used Long before solid-state Drives were ever dreamed of)

Flash-drives (external) and Solid-state drives (internal) Use RAM type memory to store the data tho.

There are different types of electronic Memory, but they are All Solid-state devices.

 

Ain't Terminology Wonderful :-D

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It was of course Solid State Drives I was interested in,

 

So, to get Myself back on Track the original question was about Flash-drive technology,

or Solid-state-Drive, if it is mounted internally (inside device or computer case).

In that case, I agree that Defraging would Not be needed for that technology,

but I still question the long term reliability of using Solid-state Only for data storage.

There are Very Good reasons that Hard-drives were Invented. ;-)

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Hi Viking

I just read that Sun announced a SLC storage device (subscriber line concentrator?) where the chip was guaranteed 1 Mill. P/E cycles (program/erase cycles)

This was in 2008 and according to Moore's Law it should by now be 4 Mill. P/E cycles- soon to be 8! - so - in 10 years close to 10 billion cycles. :-)

Perhaps my HHD lasts that long - but I wouldn't bet on it! :-) :-)

In view of this the defragging industry may have some years of grace before becoming obsolete??

Some devices are a mix between electronic/electrical storage and magnetic storage. They are called hybrids.

The electrical part like fx. RAM will shed all information when the power disappears, while the magnetic storage will retain the information.

Isn't that correctly understood?

Cheers

solbjerg

p.s. The SLC may in this case have stood for Single-Level Cell, sorry!

I have a Acronym translator that are some years old - and after Toppack pointed out that he is well versed in acronyms - I took a look in a newer acronym finder :-)

 

 

Hei, Solbjerg!

 

There are many sites talking about SSD's but I consider the information from Intel to be the most accurate.

http://www.intel.com/support/ssdc/hpssd/sb/CS-029623.htm#5

I will strongly advice not to install SSD into an environment that is depenting on write cycles, ie. data storage.

But, in an environment where the SSD contains data to be read, ie. OS Boot, they are superb.

 

According to Moores law the numbers will change, but I think that a SSD har about 1 000 000 write cycles. A harddrive appx. 500 000 hours lifespan.

 

Hope this was a bit helpfull.

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I just read that Sun announced a SLC storage device (subscriber line concentrator)

 

I thought a 'subscriber line concentrator' was the name for a Telephone line switching terminal :?: :-D

Are they using this storage device for digital phone-line data, as in DSL lines :?:

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Hi, Solbjerg

Unfortunatly I will be testing the SSD sooner than antisipated. My main Desktop computer broke down yesterday. I need a new one, and have decided to get one with a SSDisk as a boot disk. I will let you know more as soon as I have the computer setup and running.

 

BTW: This disk gets good rewievs. WD SiliconEdge Blue SSD

 

Take care.

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Hi Viking

Sorry to hear that - but the benefits for me is fine :-)

I will get some first hand information - great!

What happened to your main computer - old age?

Are you a hard user?

I will take a look at SiliconEdge Blue - thank you!!

Good luck with your new computer - please tell me how the transition of the data proceeded/came out!

 

Likeså!

Cheers

solbjerg

 

 

Hi, Solbjerg

Unfortunatly I will be testing the SSD sooner than anticipated. My main Desktop computer broke down yesterday. I need a new one, and have decided to get one with a SSDisk as a boot disk. I will let you know more as soon as I have the computer setup and running.

 

BTW: This disk gets good rewievs. WD SiliconEdge Blue SSD

 

Take care.

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The old one was a Dell Precision 390. I think the raid controller is the culprit. It's onboard so eitherway I need a new mainboard or a new machine.

 

I'm working as a systemdesigner in a software company. We write all software ourselves using mainly Visual Studio.

Our main system is a complete solution for factories. We have customers in Norway, Sweden and Island, but not Denmark.

The other system is a solution for error reporting and follow up/maintenance for all buildings and installations.

 

Cheers

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ok Viking

You are located not too far from Ålesund I think-

Do you have snow yet?

Daily temperature on Bornholm now is about 2-5°C

We have just started felling trees for firewood today in a neighbouring forest for use next year.

I think I mentioned that I had worked in Leirvik/Stord in the seventies.

They called me stovt like a Norwegian - I took that as a compliment :-)

My older brother is a physicist, he frequents scientific forums and writes quite a lot in Excel forums. His name is Hans.

Not so much about quantum mechanics though :-)

My mother and father lived in Norway for 10 years - my mother was awarded "kætterprisen" one year. :-)

They are both dead now.

Cheers

solbjerg

 

The old one was a Dell Precision 390. I think the raid controller is the culprit. It's onboard so eitherway I need a new mainboard or a new machine.

 

I'm working as a systemdesigner in a software company. We write all software ourselves using mainly Visual Studio.

Our main system is a complete solution for factories. We have customers in Norway, Sweden and Island, but not Denmark.

The other system is a solution for error reporting and follow up/maintenance for all buildings and installations.

 

Cheers

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Sorry to hear about your parents.

 

Well, the vikings came from Denmark and Norway. We're the same people. Just a bit different language.

 

Ålesund is a bit away. I'm in Trondheim.

 

Snow and +0,5 today. I really do hate winter. Maybe move to Esbjerg or something. :)

 

Cheers

TheBear

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Hi Viking

Thank you - but they both had good long lives (83/87 years)

My girlfriend is an architect and worked for more than 10 years at Kronborg registering the site archeologically.

She was very impressed with the accuracy of the measurements.

The original castle was called Krogen and was modelled after Erik af Pommern's birthplace just much bigger (80x80 m) a precise square with less than couple of mm incorrectness in measurements.

Erik af Pommern later resigned the throne and became sort of a pirate located on Gotland :-)

Cheers

solbjerg

p.s. If you can find Bertil Wahlquist's book "Vikingernes vilda leker" I recommend you to read it, - it is interesting and funny.

p.p.s. "Barsk idræt - sport i vikingetiden",1979, Forlag/Hamlet. På dansk!

 

Sorry to hear about your parents.

 

Well, the vikings came from Denmark and Norway. We're the same people. Just a bit different language.

 

Ålesund is a bit away. I'm in Trondheim.

 

Snow and +0,5 today. I really do hate winter. Maybe move to Esbjerg or something. :)

 

Cheers

TheBear

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